eaz
Burning fire
Posts: 58
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Elders
Dec 16, 2005 23:23:21 GMT 1
Post by eaz on Dec 16, 2005 23:23:21 GMT 1
Hello people,
First of all, I don't mean this offensive in anyway, I like all of you (most of you anyway) alot, and I joined this guild because Cali and Aldandil were in it.
What I find rather weird is that someof the Elders aren't on that much, and/or don't organize events/runs frequently. Ever since I joined, we've done atleast 1 run/day but pretty much everyday with the same select group of people. Again, I don't mean to offend anyone with this, I just find it not fair to the people that put alot of time in organising things don't really get the PvE reward of Elder status. I myself don't really want it, but I seriously think there are some people in the guild that do deserve it for one hundred percent and don't have it (yet).
Another thing, theres always people on vent. We need everyone to be on vent for events like MC or ZG, it really does matter that you're on cause it's really annoying if everyone is on vent except for example one tank/mage/whatever. If you can't be bothered coming on vent then you shouldn't be allowed to participate in raids.
Last but not least, when rolling on things people don't really listen to what others say, in both raidchat and vent. I suggest the raidleader or an assistant CLEARLY indicates which classes are allowed to roll. Not like tonight when pretty much all classes that had casting capabilities rolled.
Hope I get some response.
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niram
Small flame
Posts: 42
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Elders
Dec 17, 2005 0:15:35 GMT 1
Post by niram on Dec 17, 2005 0:15:35 GMT 1
Elders is a PvE reward, you get to go on raids over other people of the same class.
Right now we have people that don't PvE much, who constantly PvP as elders. This means they're working on their PvP set all the time, yet they get priority over people that may PvE much more than them. Elders having full blue gear isn't a reason not to help others in PvE, the fact people are willing to help others even though they have good gear is a great reason for getting the elder position in the first place. Gear attained on raids is usually PvE based, people that PvE regardless of whether they need stuff or not will use this gear more, and to aid the guild, not to aid themselves in PvP encounters. Elder should be given only to people that are willing to help others without much persuasion, whether they need stuff from the zone or not, it's obvious.
So basically PvPers get PvP rewards, PvErs get PvE rewards. PvPers shouldn't get PvP and PvE rewards while PvErs get the back seat on both types of gear. The system is massively flawed and sharunos doesn't want to listen to this.
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Elders
Dec 17, 2005 0:28:35 GMT 1
Post by tobiasjee on Dec 17, 2005 0:28:35 GMT 1
I agree...
And about the ventrilo thing.. We used it tonight (almost all, only 1 mage didn't) and it speeded it up way better... also we had a nuts pull (1 got feared into group of mobs) and because we where on ventrilo, we managed to sheep, and hold sheeped, and get the others tanked properly...
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niram
Small flame
Posts: 42
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Elders
Dec 17, 2005 0:28:47 GMT 1
Post by niram on Dec 17, 2005 0:28:47 GMT 1
^ it's only flawed because of the people the officers/sharunos choose to become elders.
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Elders
Dec 17, 2005 1:08:26 GMT 1
Post by thomassil on Dec 17, 2005 1:08:26 GMT 1
I got to agree on some points. It sometimes seems to be that some elders would only be online for the raids. We officers and the guildleader choose the people, but we might be doing it wrong.
Elders may have to many advantages, and people who help eachother but can not attend to raids much are being downsided with nothing. So I think gifts for active members, helpfull members who show commitment would be in order. Were not having a guildbank for nothing. I won't take this thread offensive, because apparently a lot of members see the system as flawed.
To keep this guild fun for everyone we need these constructive posts. So keep up this and I have to agree that even when listening ventrilo is very handy. Well let's see what things we could do in the future
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Elders
Dec 17, 2005 10:36:57 GMT 1
Post by dlux on Dec 17, 2005 10:36:57 GMT 1
I gotta agree with niram and eaz here ...
Thing is when asking questions in pm about elder status or other, that there is little or no response about it ...
Also I would like to point out that "raidleaders" arent really leading the raid as it should be (not all off course, but some) Some non-leaders lead better then the leaders itself ...
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Elders
Dec 17, 2005 12:01:30 GMT 1
Post by Sharunos Starrune on Dec 17, 2005 12:01:30 GMT 1
note1: Elder isnt a raid-leader rank note2: Why do you become elder (as one of the criteria)? Gear... When you got really good gear you have a very good chance of becoming an elder... Why are those currently Elders that rank? because they got that gear... Why do they PvP that much? because there is little new gear to get for them in the normal instances...
And yes, i know, but more elders are coming... just be patient plz...
Current Elders: Runa, Calidriza and Carolíne... may i remind you lot that those 3 are almost at ALL raids...?
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eaz
Burning fire
Posts: 58
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Elders
Dec 17, 2005 12:26:37 GMT 1
Post by eaz on Dec 17, 2005 12:26:37 GMT 1
Sharunos you seemed to have missed the whole point of my post.
With raids I don't only mean ZG and MC. I also mean 10 man raids, like strat, scholo or even 5 man runs like DM Tribute, etc..
How come they're elder because of their gear? Isn't it more like a rank for the officers, that organize things, make sure raids go smooth, etc..
I also didn't say Elder = Raidleader rank, I just meant that in all guild that I've been in Officer was more like the people that helped (or took over) with the duties of the Guildleader when he was absent.
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niram
Small flame
Posts: 42
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Elders
Dec 17, 2005 12:32:30 GMT 1
Post by niram on Dec 17, 2005 12:32:30 GMT 1
Yeah sharunos you really didn't read the posts properly, just like you didn't read my whispers properly.
Elders get a benefit from having good gear, which they earned by the guild helping THEM.
Elders should get the rank by helping others regardless of the quality of their gear.
Let's say I'm a priest and Calidriza is a priest. I help everyone out whenever I have the time, Calidriza PvP's almost all the time. I have more than a full set of blues, with an epic, so does Calidriza. Calidriza takes over my position in a raid because he's an elder, how is that fair? I PvE more, helping people even though I don't need gear on runs, Calidriza is going to get a PvE set before me and the PvP set before me, because he takes over my place in PvE even though all he does is PvP.
I'm not saying Calidriza PvP's ALL the time, he tried to help us out yesterday but his connection f**ked up. But there are definitley a lot of people that spend their time helping others more than Calidriza does, and there's no reason he should get priority over others in PvE raids.
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Elders
Dec 17, 2005 16:46:45 GMT 1
Post by Aldandil on Dec 17, 2005 16:46:45 GMT 1
I think the role of the Elder-rank may have been misunderstood. As is stated in the guildannouncement forum, the Elder's main area are the guildraids. Why? Because we have had, and still have, a need for a core of experienced raiders in each guildraid. The EQ-issue to get an elderrank is obvious, the experienced core for a guildraid should have good EQ, which will improve the results of the entire raid. Personally, I can learn to live with the fact that our elders get a first shot at guildraids, because the reason we have them is to make the guildraids more successful. I don't think we would fare as well in MC or ZG if we had new groups joining each time. I would like to refer to the speed we have in ZG when we only have people who has been there before.
Regarding the Elders helping other guildmembers or not, as we can see, that's not their main assignment. My personal experience is that i've recieved help from our elders, mainly Cali (for some reason) but also Caroline and Runa. It is very possible that we need to make a rank for people who has been of great use to ordinary guildruns of the easier instances, or just helping others out, but that rank is not Elder.
While Nirams example shows that an Elder rank could be in wrong use, it doesn’t take into consideration that if the both of you have the same gear, both of you should be elders. If one of you does a lot of guildraids, and the other don’t, then the Elder rank is working as intended. It may be a bit harsh at times (as in the hunter case, where only one non-Elder hunter gets to join some raids) but there is a reason why raidexperienced members should have first shot.
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eaz
Burning fire
Posts: 58
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Elders
Dec 17, 2005 16:50:01 GMT 1
Post by eaz on Dec 17, 2005 16:50:01 GMT 1
Then it's just the name that makes it a bit weird, should just call em veterans or something.
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fearoz
Greater flame
Posts: 150
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Elders
Dec 17, 2005 22:28:53 GMT 1
Post by fearoz on Dec 17, 2005 22:28:53 GMT 1
I'll fully agree with Aldandil on this, i also think experience is the main thing of getting the elder rank because as aldandil said: the future and smoothness of the guild/runs is based on this.
anyway, its just that there are too many opinions that can be given on this point..... so i think that there dont need to be changed something cause else the will always be various discussions with everyone's opinion in it and we wont get a clear statement of things that are just as ment to be in this guild wheter some ppl like it or not.
Greetz
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Elders
Dec 18, 2005 1:57:15 GMT 1
Post by calidriza on Dec 18, 2005 1:57:15 GMT 1
Niram, yes i do ALOT of PvP atm, almost all the time im online except for when im in for planned raids, i do this to get the commanders epic mount, the PvP gear is a nice bonus though.. but since this guild soon will venture further in MC it will soon be outdated, i hope! Before i started to do alot of PvP i was one of the most active players in PvE and helped out ALOT, I do belive that is why I have this rank now.. But unfortunatly to get to commander i have to PvP alot, alot more than most other classes because of the design of the honorsystem and since im restospecced, a spec i only keep to help the guild.. I do still help alot of people, but not in guildruns to scholo, strat and so on since it is quite easy to find ppl from outside the guild to run those instances with, and although its much nicer to run with the guild, i help ppl farm for items, grind, and do quests, wich are much harder to get help with.. And when you say that you should help alot in instances although you dont need anything from them i must agree, but after doing several runs every day with guildies as last spot healer for a month knowing the only change you will have on your eq is the loss of durabilty you want a change to not get sick of the game..
I wanted to quote these two lines, 1. the only items i've got from guildraids and with help from the guild is my staff and my classtrinket, and htese where not even out goal on these runs, we farmed for healingneclaces and MC shoulders for the rogues. All other items are from farming runs with PUGs with no help from the guild.
2. First Aldandil have some very valid points in his post and second, if you want the rank to be something you get for helping out regardeless if you need something from the instance or not, well, then everyone who is farming for items do "help" others, but they would have joined a PUG if there was no guildraid and then i wouldnt really call it help.
And I do agree, there are more people who decerve to be elders, but i think since the rank elder is given from your participation in guildraids to ZG and MC, to gain this rank, your activity, actions, and skill in these raids should be the main reason to be elder, ofcourse helping guildmembers in non-DKP instances and other occations should also be taken into account.
*off to look for something to sharpen my claws with* *rawrrr* ^^
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niram
Small flame
Posts: 42
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Elders
Dec 18, 2005 3:36:11 GMT 1
Post by niram on Dec 18, 2005 3:36:11 GMT 1
Nobody deserves to be given the place over someone else in the guild. How is a new member supposed to learn how to raid properly if there's 2 very active elders both of the same class which raids require only 2 of. If calidriza was a warlock, why should he take my place if only 1 warlock was required? Queue jumping isn't a good reward, it demotivates and it takes the opportunity away to learn from some less experienced players.
Instead, why don't you offer a weekly DKP prize to people that excel in certain aspects?
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Elders
Dec 18, 2005 4:17:02 GMT 1
Post by calidriza on Dec 18, 2005 4:17:02 GMT 1
The idea of a weekly DKP prize is good but i think it might be hard to make it fair, queue jumping maybe isn't fair either, but having at least some experienced players will get runs go smother. I do think 2 elderspots is to much, 1 elderspot should be enough and would make it possible for more various people to join raids.
If we get to a time where we have more than one elder in every class maybe an elderrun sometimes, with no limit on the ammount of elders for every class, could be a good idea. The purpose of these runs should be to try new bosses and tactics and I hope these people will be willing to try, try, try, try, and keep focused even after the fifth failed attempt.. I think all of us want to get to Hakkar, but I think there is a difference in how hard we are willing to work..
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