DKP systemflaws?

[Sharunos Starrune]

Eum, sorry Socrates, I wanted to move your thread here, but accidently hit Remove (wtf didnt even ask for confirmation??) Anyway, sorry it got lost :S

Anyway, as to reply to your thread...
You point out a valid flaw, but I don't think it's really in need of fix -now-, though we could raise the max bid soon. But as I had replied... ( ) all systems have their flaws... We could go maxbid, but i think this could be too much in favor of the "half-active"... High active people would like to try to spread their dkp over multiple items, while half-actives might consider bidding all their DKP on one single item...
THAT's why we got max bids. As you say, they might get raised, but currently, i'd say, those really high on DKP either have been more active and thus deserve to get their "reward" more than someone who just started, OR they already got the item (which is quite likely on high-DKP people too)

I already considered using the difference in Current-DKP when it comes to more people bidding the max. I'm currently thinking of <10 DKP difference (ZG) and 20 (MC) should force a roll... higher roller winning. This would come around 2/3th of a run difference...

again my apoligies to the deletion of the previous thread ;S

[socrates]

My reply i wanted to post before the thread was deleted(no need to appologize, the thread is here again)

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Most ppl think the max bid thing is flawed but some of the suggestions made, I don't get. The rolling thing is just stupid, why does this game has to be a matter of luck?
the one with the most DKP has saved the most of his points for the item he wants, or just did more runs. "With a difference of 10 or less you should roll", has been suggested. I see it like this, being the one with the most DKP with a difference of 10 is allready some sort of luck, having the most I find it fair that you should win the proposed "roll". So let's just leave the roll out and immedately give it to the one with the most dkp instead.

About the maximum bid I think it should be around 100 for ZG, just a bit more than the amount you can earn as explained in my post above. For MC I havent calculated it, but I think it should be more or less the double since you can earn more or lessthe double amount of DKP in MC too.

The only thing that has to be changed imo is the maximum bid for the reasons I posted in my first post.This way the one with the most effort still has the highest priority of getting the item. I'll explain it a bit more.
The difference is that say person A has 150 points because he can raid every day and person B has 100 because he only can go once a week. If an item drops that both players want, person A gets. Because the max bid is 45 he stands at 105 points. Next week person A did another 3 runs and has points 150 again. An item drops, both want it, person A gets it again because person A only has 115.
As you can see, person A will never get anything, even if he raids every week for a whole year long...
Increasing the max bid wil prevent these kind of situations ofcourse.

thx for reading this long post

greets socrates

[Sharunos Starrune]

socrates said:

For some the reason the thread was removed just while I writing this post lol. I didnt want to let all the effort put in it be wasted so i'll just post it here.

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Most ppl think the max bid thing is flawed but some of the suggestions made, I don't get. The rolling thing is just stupid, why does this game has to be a matter of luck?
the one with the most DKP has saved the most of his points for the item he wants, or just did more runs. "With a difference of 10 or less you should roll", has been suggested. I see it like this, being the one with the most DKP with a difference of 10 is allready some sort of luck, having the most I find it fair that you should win the proposed "roll". So let's just leave the roll out and immedately give it to the one with the most dkp instead.

About the maximum bid I think it should be around 100 for ZG, just a bit more than the amount you can earn as explained in my post above. For MC I havent calculated it, but I think it should be more or less the double since you can earn more or lessthe double amount of DKP in MC too.

The only thing that has to be changed imo is the maximum bid for the reasons I posted in my first post.This way the one with the most effort still has the highest priority of getting the item. I'll explain it a bit more.
The difference is that say person A has 150 points because he can raid every day and person B has 100 because he only can go once a week. If an item drops that both players want, person A gets. Because the max bid is 45 he stands at 105 points. Next week person A did another 3 runs and has points 150 again. An item drops, both want it, person A gets it again because person A only has 115.
As you can see, person A will never get anything, even if he raids every week for a whole year long...
Increasing the max bid wil prevent these kind of situations ofcourse.

thx for reading this long post

greets socrates

As for your example...
it points out that someone being a lot more active gets epics before someone less active... true, true, but ever considered that the other can get the same epic a lot cheaper (considering only A and B) when it drops next time?
I used an example in officers chat a while ago, ill copy it here (i like using extrema though)

[Sharunos Starrune]

Here is what I posted in officer's board... (long time ago)

Now, I don't know if everyone has read the system I introduced a few days ago? It comes basicly to this:
The one with highest DKP gets it, for a standard price.
For example, current Druid DKPs:
Sharunos: 65
Calidriza: 48
Starbreeze: 14
Epic I want drops in ZG (standard price 10DKP) is earned by me for having the highest DKP, and ill be 10 DKP poorer. No bids ^^.

I am aware this is not the normal way to do it, but it has some advantages, like one can get items based on how active you are in guildevents, and it is not dependant on how much your contestants can bid!
Would we be working with bids, and let's say a really good Druid(only) staff drops, and we all 3 want it using bids:
Calidriza can bid 48, therefor, if I want to get it, ill have to bid 49. this lives me with 16 DKP, Starbreeze with 14, and Calidriza still with 48!. Assuming we dont get DKP in the meanwhile, what happens if 2 more good druid stuff drop? I can bid 16, Cali can bid 17, leaving her with 31. Next item, I still bid 16, Cali 17, leaving her with 14!
End result:
Sharunos: - 49 DKP for 1 item
Calidriza: -34 DKP for 2 items
Not that fair either, I could say ^^

Now, lets get this example into extremes: In our ZG raid are 2 participants of priests:
Priest1: 100 DKP
Priest2: 99 DKP
Drop(priest): P1 has to bid 100 DKP to get it:
P1: 0 DKP
P2: 99 DKP
This would enable P2 to consume ALL next items dropping for priests, at the cost of 10 DKP...

Anyway, a problem of NOT bidding comes with the following: new members will have a hard time getting items, for after a while, people will have loads of DKP without a way to spend it... Bidding however will increase the amount of DKP loss per item, and will therefor keep members on low(er) DKP.
On the otherhand, one could say that those on high DKP will have items and no longer need (all) the drops, the newcomers will want to have.

Just some thoughts. Personally, I think no bids is more fair, but it has flaws which needs to be worked on.
We aswell could use a bid range... Like ZG Epics have a bidrange of 10-40 DKP. MC epics from 20-80, etc (4x base value used). This could straighten out the flaws a bit, but I wonder if that's really the way to go. But this way you do feature that people can try to outbid another, if they really want to get an item.
If 2 members bid both to the max, we could say that if the currentDKP difference is higher than 30 (or something), the higher DKP holder will get it, at the max bid. If the difference is lower, roll and winner pays the DKP for the item.

Oh, and I'm aware that bid-system will just require some tactical bids from members for it to work somewhat fair, but just offering some thoughts. The common way isnt always the best!

[runa]

admin said:

I already considered using the difference in Current-DKP when it comes to more people bidding the max. I'm currently thinking of <10 DKP difference (ZG) and 20 (MC) should force a roll... higher roller winning. This would come around 2/3th of a run difference...

Sry to say it, but i dont like that. I think the system we have today is very good icant find any reason to change it.

[Sharunos Starrune]

Mja, me neither, like i said (or was that in my self-deleted post) I tried to keep rules simple...

Socrates just made a point that seen over an average run, people earn way more DKP than they can spend, resulting in members having nutsloads of DKP, disableing new members to "compete"...
Like i said, a valid point, but i don't think the max should be raised (or at least not yet)

[socrates]

admin said:

Here is what I posted in officer's board... (long time ago)

Now, I don't know if everyone has read the system I introduced a few days ago? It comes basicly to this:
The one with highest DKP gets it, for a standard price.
For example, current Druid DKPs:
Sharunos: 65
Calidriza: 48
Starbreeze: 14
Epic I want drops in ZG (standard price 10DKP) is earned by me for having the highest DKP, and ill be 10 DKP poorer. No bids ^^.

I am aware this is not the normal way to do it, but it has some advantages, like one can get items based on how active you are in guildevents, and it is not dependant on how much your contestants can bid!
Would we be working with bids, and let's say a really good Druid(only) staff drops, and we all 3 want it using bids:
Calidriza can bid 48, therefor, if I want to get it, ill have to bid 49. this lives me with 16 DKP, Starbreeze with 14, and Calidriza still with 48!. Assuming we dont get DKP in the meanwhile, what happens if 2 more good druid stuff drop? I can bid 16, Cali can bid 17, leaving her with 31. Next item, I still bid 16, Cali 17, leaving her with 14!
End result:
Sharunos: - 49 DKP for 1 item
Calidriza: -34 DKP for 2 items
Not that fair either, I could say ^^

Now, lets get this example into extremes: In our ZG raid are 2 participants of priests:
Priest1: 100 DKP
Priest2: 99 DKP
Drop(priest): P1 has to bid 100 DKP to get it:
P1: 0 DKP
P2: 99 DKP
This would enable P2 to consume ALL next items dropping for priests, at the cost of 10 DKP...

Anyway, a problem of NOT bidding comes with the following: new members will have a hard time getting items, for after a while, people will have loads of DKP without a way to spend it... Bidding however will increase the amount of DKP loss per item, and will therefor keep members on low(er) DKP.
On the otherhand, one could say that those on high DKP will have items and no longer need (all) the drops, the newcomers will want to have.

Just some thoughts. Personally, I think no bids is more fair, but it has flaws which needs to be worked on.
We aswell could use a bid range... Like ZG Epics have a bidrange of 10-40 DKP. MC epics from 20-80, etc (4x base value used). This could straighten out the flaws a bit, but I wonder if that's really the way to go. But this way you do feature that people can try to outbid another, if they really want to get an item.
If 2 members bid both to the max, we could say that if the currentDKP difference is higher than 30 (or something), the higher DKP holder will get it, at the max bid. If the difference is lower, roll and winner pays the DKP for the item.

Oh, and I'm aware that bid-system will just require some tactical bids from members for it to work somewhat fair, but just offering some thoughts. The common way isnt always the best!

If I have understood you well, you want to keep the max bid because you think that otherwise, ppl with less activity can benefit from ppl with more. I see that this will be done, but I don't agree fully. People don't have to bid the maximum, if they do it anyway they either want it badly or don't care if someone else gets it for less.

Because I see this discussion could go on for years (noone is really "right" about anything), I want to make another suggestion.

after reading your post I was looking for more information about NDKP, another DKP system a friend told me about, they use it in Bloodline and I think it's a very good system.

NDKP, Nurfed Dragon kill points (from the guild "nurfed" and the nurfed UI)

the system is simple, everyone gets DKP just like with normal DKP system. The difference is with the looting. The system makes use of a database, easy and free obtainable from the nurfed site. The database comes in the form off an addon, so you can use it ingame. It contains a preset DKP value of every item ingame from blue to epic I think.

So looting will be as follows. A boss drops an item, the guildleader looks up the value of the item, everyone desireing the item sais so, the one with the most dkp gets it.

the good things about this system:
-The most active get the most or the best items.
-An item will allways go for the same DKP.
-Players who don't have time to raid alot, still are able to get something, though it takes longer for them.

If things aren't clear just say so and I will explain the things you don't understand.

[Sharunos Starrune]

Hmm, that's more or less the same we got Socrates, but there is a bit of a bidding range to prevent people getting overburdened on DKP (like you pointed out)
And these bidranges are not item specific, but item-type&instance specific...

[dlux]

I like the DKP as it is atm ...

Hardcore raiders get the items first (mostly at more dkp) then the more casual raiders get some others or the same ones ...

i vote for keeping it like it is atm ...

[bobsonn]

the DKP system works like the one bloodline uses and i know a lot of others guild who use that as well.

then u will still have the same problem that person B has to wait like forever untill an item.
the thing that isnt fair is that its now (with ZG runs) the one who are fastest to the forum to sign in get the DKP.

i think rank elder and maximum bid solves the problems for a great part.
example:
still person A and B with 100 and 150 dkp. min bid for the item is 20 max 40. player A bid 40, player B bids 40. player B gets item since he has most DKP. next drop. players B gets it 2, but has to pay 40 dkp for its again.

next run player A still 100. player B again on 150. the item from first run drops. player B dont need, player A get it for 20 DKP. in that way, it should become more fair. since B has to pay more, but can get it everytime he wants. player a who isnt as active just has to wait a lil longer but gets it for less DKP.

i think the system of bloodline has to deal more with the problem u mentioned above socrates.



but raising the max bid might be not a bad idea for a while. since we do raids, but dont have many high dkp drops. some players have very high dkp and didnt see a drop they want

[champis]

i vote for keep it

[calidriza]

i think we should keep it as it is with one exception: although i have most DKP atm.. i think that if the difference is <20 DKP we should roll..

[killerbean]

im not sure if the following comment im gonna post belongs in this topic but it has to do something with dkp so here we go:P

atm we use the forum for ZG/MC signups. the first come first pick system we use now has some negative effects for certain ppl. we all know ZG is a 20 man instance but we have often more than 20 ppl willing to play. no matter how fast ppl are with signing up on the forum, some ppl will simply not have a chance to get in the raid (this is even when someone signs up 30 seconds later).

those ppl who are signed up, but not picked will not recieve any dkp while they did sign up.
im not making the statement to give anyone who signed up to give them dkp when they are standby or whatever. i just wanna start a discussion about how we can prevent it that some ppl are almost every time in a raid because they check the forum every 10 minutes while others (for excample due work/school) cannot check the forum that often.

we have an elder system, but this will only make the same ppl raid even more and get even higher dkp so those who raid less will never have a chance of winning an epic.

plz let me hear your thoughts.

[dlux]

As already said before... ppl who dont raid that much WILL recieve epics in the end, but prob not the first time it drops (wich is normal imo)

And thb I dont see any other option then "first comes first served"

[Aldandil]

Firstly, I don't intend to make suggestions regarding the DKP-system, so if any nice officer thinks i'm posting in the wrong thread, just move it. The post regards the possibilities to gain DKP in ZG-raids, which are the most common guildraids atm.

There is one small problem with the first come, first served for ZG-raids, especially for a few classes. 2 of our officers/elders are hunters, so if they wants to join a ZG-raid, it only leaves one spot left for the plain, mortal hunters. I would very much like to raid more often than i do, but some of my week-nights are occupied with other things, and if I'm free, it's not easy to get in the raidgroup, with all our hunters fighting for the last free spot. We have a lot of hunters at lvl 60 now, and a lot of them are active.

The situation is as bad for warriors, since we need two defensive specced warriiors, leaving only one spot for our large group of dps-warriors (I'd like to argue for a definite invite-stop for more hunters and warriors, apart from other things stated, but that may be a different discussion).

It would be nice if there was a possibility for two "fixed" ZG-runs per week, which lets the ones who didn't make it into the first run have first shot on the second one. For example, if the runs are announced on a monday in a week, the first of the two runs is in the span of wednesday-friday, and the second one saturday-monday.

Another possibility is to lower the elderspots from two to one (please don't hit me, elders) but that won't be as effective i think. It's only a problem for hunters, and doesn't solve the issues for the warriors. These suggestion don't exclude one another though.

Well, all of this is only a few thoughts, feel free to cut them to pieces =).